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Author Topic: Season after the John Surtees Cup  (Read 1650 times)

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Offline lmntr

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Season after the John Surtees Cup
« on: January 25, 2018, 06:44:PM »
Hello fellows, I am thinking on continuing with the dual format as in the Surtees Cup.  I looked at the PC2 Career and the next open wheel is the Formula C so I looked at historic cars again and came up with the Lotus 78 (Mario Andrettiís Championship winning car).   They say the Formula C is based on the GP3/F3 cars and so far I only did research in GP3.  I found that in GP3 of 2013 year, the most recognizable drivers are Carlos Sainz and Kyvat (torpedo) with Kyvat actually winning three times.  I have not researched 2013 F3 yet perhaps someone could give me a hand there.   All present lobby settings will remain but I am having an inclination to remove Stability Control.  I also thinking on bringing a Safety Car procedure.  The tracks I thought about doing those generally overlooked and not associated with Formula One such as Algarve, Brno Zuhai and such.   The Safety car period will take about 3 laps so we will not have a safety car if the race is already 3 laps from the end. The criteria will be your car damaged to the extend that you can not hold a controlled trajectory (side to side movement without wheel input) or more than 2 cars with damage, the cars will race to the start line and hold station but may continue to race to the first turn before the pit road exit in case someone is coming out of the pit.  Of course the leader(s) may elect to pit if they desire in this ďincident lapĒ and leave whoever behind the leader of the Safety car period (Second Lap).  The pace leader must drive at a much reduced pace to allow drivers to bunch up several turns before the last turn.  The pace leader can not trick those behind by accelerating before the last turn (fellow drivers must be closely behind although those that just did repair and are much farther behind can run at race pace but they must not make a pass), he must accelerate from that point.  All drivers must not be ahead of the next car before the last turn.  The three lap rule is intended to give you at least one lap of race.   I need to try to fit this properly in the next months, so please let me know what period of weeks I need to avoid (school break and traditional holiday leave and such).  Okay letís hear it!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 06:48:PM by lmntr »

Offline thebag69

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2018, 11:57:PM »
Iím happy to race anything. George joined us for a race in the Lotus 79 last night, that was fun albeit tricky Iíve not tried the 78.

Would it be possible to do a separate championship for each car and race them in the same order each week? At least Iíd have a go in at least 1 championship. Just a suggestion for selfish reasons really.

No problem if not - Iím happy just join when I can as I have this season. As I canít make this new format work for me unfortunately.


Offline lmntr

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2018, 02:52:AM »
Iím happy to race anything. George joined us for a race in the Lotus 79 last night, that was fun albeit tricky Iíve not tried the 78.

Would it be possible to do a separate championship for each car and race them in the same order each week? At least Iíd have a go in at least 1 championship. Just a suggestion for selfish reasons really.

No problem if not - Iím happy just join when I can as I have this season. As I canít make this new format work for me unfortunately.
I had already thought about you and was going to ask you which car you would like to do so that it would always be the second car of the night :thumb_up:  Just let me know.  Unless by some miracle you can start around 8:30 and we all agree to delay our official start.   :eusa_think:

Offline thebag69

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2018, 10:11:AM »
Donít worry about me mate Iíll race whatever car. Happy to just slide in for the second race.

Offline jod08

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2018, 10:35:AM »
Just to point out that both the lotus 72 and 78's front end is like a scoop. It scoops up cars like the ramp car from fast and furious haha this could be good for moving people out the way :steeringwheel:. Also if you are following this classic V's new car format the better match for the formula c car would be Lotus 49 / 49C or 72D Cosworth as these are in vintage c classification. Looking the list below the 1977 Lotus Type 78 Cosworth would be a better match for the Formula Renault 3.5? then the formula A with the 98t? Although some of these cars defo need to have there own Championship. Cough Cough 98T  :icon_biggrin:

Open Wheeler Formula Series

Formula X [FX]
2018 SMS Formula X

Formula A [FA]
2011 SMS Formula A

Formula Renault 3.5 [FR35]
2015 Renault Formula Renault 3.5

Formula C [FC]
2016 SMS Formula C

Formula Rookie F5 [FR]
2012 SMS Formula Rookie

Kart One [KART]
2016 SMS Kart

Vintage Formula F1 {A} [VF1]
1986 Lotus Type 98T Renault Turbo

Vintage Formula F1 {B} [VF1B]
1977 Lotus Type 78 Cosworth

Vintage Formula F1 {C} [VF1C]
1967 Lotus Type 49 Cosworth
1970 Lotus Type 49C Cosworth
1972 Lotus Type 72D Cosworth

Vintage Formula F1 {D} [VF1D]
1963 Lotus Type 25 Climax

Vintage Formula F3 {A} [VF3]
1967 Lotus Type 51

I think the back to back worked well with the lotus and rookie as they are both simple cars meant no practice till race day. But i still seem to struggle in the second race's regardless of what car it is. I think i struggled to adapt to the second car and found it to easy to lose focus. So moving on to bigger faster more complex cars will force pre race day setup work & practice. I dont want to use most of wheel time on one season so i may only do the first races. I think The_Bag has mentioned default setups before? I did a season in the 49c on project cars 1 with forced default setups and that was quite fun. Plus everyone was in the same car so it kept the pack close & meant no practice. Honestly i would prefer one longer race like before in the gulfs and maybe change it up with some different weather now and then? Also i would prefer something different on a Wednesday rather than a practice race, same cars, same track. Two days for one race plus the practice if needed so come race-day im thinking i just did all this yesterday why am i doing it again today lol. This why i dont join on Wednesday's, i also think if you brought a different race series to the league you might get more interest in/on the site as a whole. There is 180 cars on this game and the league is limited to 12. Maybe to start with bring some special events in using other cars to brake seasons up and having some longer 1 off races now and then could be good too. I have an idea i will pitch it you lol

Offline Mattikake

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2018, 02:14:PM »
I'm not too fussed what is chosen. The only thing that i think works are cars that are easy to be consistent with, if not easy to drive. Close racing gets screwed when there is scope for big laptime differences. As personal preference I always prefer cars you can race to focus on going fast and battling other people, rather than cars that are about just keeping it on the track. This is why the rookie and 25 worked well.

I haven't tried the 49/49c much but enough to discover they are tricky cars to drive consistently and set up. I don't think that would work well.

Default setups could be an option. Only issue with that is my wheel is like steering a bus- loads of input. When setting.up a car the first thing i always have to do is make the steering rack faster.

Btw I've read your safety car procedure several times and still don't understand it!

Offline thebag69

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2018, 11:27:PM »
I'm not too fussed what is chosen. The only thing that i think works are cars that are easy to be consistent with, if not easy to drive. Close racing gets screwed when there is scope for big laptime differences. As personal preference I always prefer cars you can race to focus on going fast and battling other people, rather than cars that are about just keeping it on the track. This is why the rookie and 25 worked well.

I haven't tried the 49/49c much but enough to discover they are tricky cars to drive consistently and set up. I don't think that would work well.

Default setups could be an option. Only issue with that is my wheel is like steering a bus- loads of input. When setting.up a car the first thing i always have to do is make the steering rack faster.

Btw I've read your safety car procedure several times and still don't understand it!

When you calibrate it turn it to the max you want to turn it when racing not the full travel of the wheel.

Good call re the harder to drive cars. They do spread the field out generally.

Offline lmntr

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2018, 02:24:AM »

Btw I've read your safety car procedure several times and still don't understand it!
  I thought it would be difficult so I will try again.
The whole process is 3 laps long.  1. incident lap 2. safety car lap   3. back to race lap   It is the reason that a safety car can not be activated if the race is already 3 laps or less from the end.
Incident lap:  A call for a safety car is precipitated by at least one car with enough damage that it begins to oscillate left and right without steering input.  ( you had enough damage in the past to know what damage I am talking about, the kind that when you try to make it back to the pit, the car will turn by itself even though you have the steering steady at an angle.  It is not intended for drivable cars at speed even though it has some damage.)   I do not know how to police this, we are all adults here so hopefully we can trust each other.  When the call for Safety car is made, you are allowed to race back to the start line and keep position thereafter.  If when the leader gets to the start line, and he notices a car about to pull out of the pits, the leader is allowed to race to the first turn after pit road.  The leader or leaders also have the option to pull into the pits during the incident lap to satisfy the mandatory pit.  The leader in the safety car lap has to run at a much reduced rate of speed enough to get several cars behind him and to try to allow other to catch up.    Naturally, those that repaired damage, are still further behind and should not be a concern for the leader of the safety car lap, but those with previous damage or cars much further behind, can run at race pace to try to catch up but must not pass anyone.  The leader must accelerate from the last turn of the safety car lap with the other drivers following behind closely.  No one is allowed to pass before the last turn of the safety car lap.  This is still a work in progress so I am still working on procedure but most of it should be fine.   The only glitch I can think of is if someone gets damage in the safety car lap!

Edit.  Thanks jod for the summary table.  Let's all of us try the Lotus 49s and 72 and give your impressions. 


« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 03:01:AM by lmntr »

Offline thebag69

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2018, 12:19:PM »
Why do you want a safety car ?

Offline lmntr

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2018, 01:16:PM »
Why do you want a safety car ?
It is not something I feel must be included in the next season; more like something there would be enough interest to be desired.  The way it is now if you have to repair something, you can be assured that you most likely be a lap down.  It just takes too long than before.  I though many would like this to minimize much of the time loss and at least fight for a better position throughout the race.  I will not be pushing for this unless the majority wants it.  We can even test it on any of the upcoming socials.   I would be okay if it is not included.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 01:20:PM by lmntr »

Offline Mattikake

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2018, 07:01:PM »
Just tried some setup time with the Lotus 49 and 78 at Barcelona and I'm really starting to find the 49 is my most hated car and 78 is fast becoming one of my favourites.

The 49 is all over the place. It can't decide if it's a bus, f1 car or drift car and seemingly random moments of the 3 stages of a corner - entry, apex and exit. I wouldn't mind if it was a bus on entry, f1 car at apex and drift car on exit because you can dial that out (like the 25) but it will change it's mind while "loaded" for each section.

It's utterly disgusting and not fun.

I spent ages trying to get it to be consistent. I think it's the tyre model. Send the temps just over the 175-185degF optimal temps and it starts misbehaving like a bat sh!t crazy ex no matter how smooth I try and be.

The worrying thing is, the fastest times I could find at Barcelona for the 49 was a 1:55s. Well I could do 1:54s, erratically. So that tells me everyone struggles to be consistent. Either Jim Clark was a god or SMS are muppets. It's probably both.

The 78 however is such a pure racing car. Again almost no setup changes and I could get more than 2s faster than any times I can find posted in just a few minutes and lap after lap as well. Even with Barcelona's tendency to destroy left-hand tyres.

Got back ache before trying the 72.

One good thing could come out of that - the Lotus 78 could well be the perfect car to run a default setups championship as you hardly feel the need to do anything to it setup-wise.

Offline lmntr

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2018, 02:51:PM »
I have tested both 49 and they are very erratic in the turns.  They do both understeer and oversteer in the turns and very difficult to do pin-point accuracy.  After awhile you learn to adjust to what they do but it is really constant work.   I did very little testing with the 78 but right away it felt predictable and really allows you to fine tune your approach.   I did test the 72d and really begin to love it.   I got down to 1:45s at Watkins Glen after tweaking the set up.   The Formula C is very stable and it feels like a big version of the Rookie.  I just had to get used to the close gear ratios and subdued engine sound to get the best of it.  It is very easy on handling. 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 02:28:AM by lmntr »

Offline Mattikake

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2018, 11:20:PM »
Had a go in the 72 at Barcelona tonight. Seems good and stable at turn-in and mid-corner but has a horrible problem with rear traction that would suddenly snap loose at nowhere near full throttle, at which point it was always difficult to catch it. While diving into corners and rounding them fast was good, powering out of corners I was soon lacking in confidence.

It took me about 30 laps to understand this car and finally dial that snap loss of traction out, at which point I could start to push the car instead of tip-toeing round trying not to lose control. I had almost given up as I had tried just about everything.

Problem is, while the car became driveable, it became a bit understeery on power and mid corner and I'm pretty sure it was slow in a straight line. Still, I was lapping in the mid 1:44s which again is on par with the fastest times I could find (1:44.3)

So the 72 is pretty ok, but it will take a lot of setup work per track I reckon, unless the setup I found translates.

Offline Mattikake

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2018, 11:59:PM »
As for something different to try, have you ever considered challenging another league to a race/championship?

We could have a qualifying race/session on the Wed to see who goes through to challenge the other league on another day. 8 v 8 kinda thing.

Then again maybe you could challenge to an endurance race and have driver swaps to include the full league contingent. If so, I'll bagsie KASHINIT please. ;)

Offline SCClockDr

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Re: Season after the John Surtees Cup
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2018, 02:34:PM »
Re: safety car. I believe the loss of 3 laps from these races is a waste. A first lap "big one" should yield a rolling restart losing that lap. If the leader is in the last sector then no restart. Otherwise he slows when caution is called & stops prior to the last turn. That is if the game will not kick for lack of progress.

IRL these types of incidents ruin the teams whole week. I hate it when I'm involved but that's life I'm afraid. At least I've not lost millions on prep and wrecked cars.
Regards
George

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